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Author Topic: Various  (Read 2585 times)

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boxedlunch

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Various
« on: June 29, 2012, 01:00:38 pm »

Alright, going through info, I need to know some things.  If you've not thought about some of these, you should.

1.  How are you handling disputes?
2.  How are you handing forfeits?
3.  How are you handing bowls?

There were a couple other questions, which escape me now.

For disputes, there are sometimes disagreements to the results of the game.  If both teams claim a win or a loss, or if one team doesn't list a game, how would you like to handle that?

For forfeits, sometimes a game is listed as a "forfeit", but the record is not changed.  Sometime a conference record is adjusted, but the game result is not, and visa versa.  Sometimes a team forfeits a game, but the opponent does not count it as a forfeit.  How explicitly would you like to handle that?

For bowls, sometimes the name of the bowl change, but the game remains the same game.  You seem to count every name change as a new bowl.  Is that correct?


Some immediate problems I noticed:

In the scoring history, large amounts of games are not counted in the away record.  It might be that the wins are correct, but the losses aren't listed.  Every loss column in home/away is zero.

Bowl losing streaks seem to be coming up "1", regardless of the actual length of the streak.

More specifically, for Iowa State, you're missing the overtime game against Iowa in 2011, and the 1969 game against Nebraska did not go into overtime.
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boxedlunch

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Re: Various
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 03:02:09 pm »

Another question was, did you intend to count exhibition games?
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Douglas

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Re: Various
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 05:12:03 pm »

Boxed, for the pages that have broken stats, please drop the link here and tell me which specific tab (on the left) have these issues. Fixing it on one school will fix the issue for all schools. Pretty sure that it's a mistyped variable (for example, <?=$abc?> is NOT the same as <?=$AbC?> or <?=$ABC?> or even <?=$aBc?>. All four are completely different from one another). Pretty sure I goofed on a variable (only logical explanation for no away records to show up, haha.

For the audit stuff, see if http://gridironhistory.com/TheAuditProcess.php helps answer most of your questions.

For specific games where I've factored something in when I shouldn't have, or when I didn't factor something that I should have, please use the actual "Report a Problem" link on the individual year.  It'll tie the game IDs in for me so I don't have to go on a mad hunt through 84K games just to find one on the master sheet.

As far as Forfeits/Vacated, I have not done the calculations on the Vacated games into the overall record, though I have done teh calculations on forfeits.  If you notice a specific school where I am not calculating it properly, please link me to the page and the specific tab.

For Exhibition games... most were done before the NCAA or even the SIAC were formed. In most cases (based on the research I've found), many schools counted Exhibition games towards the total record for that season.

It's a double edged sword for me, as far as to factor or not to factor into the final score/standings. I decided to err on the side of caution, though I may want to have a way to note the exhibition games a little more clearly (which means a re-write of several pages/files to factor this in).
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Douglas
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boxedlunch

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Re: Various
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 05:51:39 pm »

Well, I'll give you an example on the forfeits.  In 97, you have Colorado vacating 3 games.  What actually happened is they had to forfeit 5 games.  However, neither they, nor the NCAA adjusted the records, so the games are listed as forfeits, but Colorado retains their win/loss record.  If you want to show what they offiicial have, you don't apply the forfeits, but that's your preference.

As for vacated games, when a school vacates the game, the opponent does not.  Therefore, showing records for opponents that are different than the result is not correct.

As for exhibition games, I've never seen a school show the results of the exhibition game in the record for that year.  Are you sure you're reading that right?
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boxedlunch

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Re: Various
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 01:17:52 pm »

Link with the error.  Notice no losses at home.

http://gridironhistory.com/pastscores/Rice/2012.html
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Douglas

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Re: Various
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 10:40:47 pm »

boxed, records on past scores are now fixed (I was adding stuff as "Loss" instead of "Lost"). If you find any more of those, please link the specific page and I'll fix those, as well.

For Exhibition games, Kentucky vs Eastern Kentucky in 1893, New Mexico (two games in 1915 vs a HS), 4 games between Texas and Missouri in 1896 (everyone else, but the media guides list these as part of the records). There are others, but these are some of them. :)

Dealing with Exhibition games, Vacated and Forfeits is a tricky thing for anyone that deals with historical cataloging. Especially when it comes down to the calculations and figuring out the correct formulas to use.

I only indicate Vacated games, but do not calculate those numbers into the final values. I do provide the information for each person to be able to calculate vacated stuff via + and - notifications (the + indicates the school whose profile you're viewing has vacated that many games. The minus is the opponent.

The scripts that have been written are extremely complex with their coding and calculations. Even adding one new column in the database usually requires a re-write within 9 files and multiple places/sections within each file, then everything has to be rigorously tested again.

There is no perfect site around that accurately provides this information to an exact tee... not even the NCAA's site can do that.

All we're trying to do is to make sure that people have the necessary information (as a base) to be able to do the final calculations.
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Douglas
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boxedlunch

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Re: Various
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 01:12:23 pm »

Well, media guide have several different sections, and you never really know, but by my experience, what you're telling me just isn't so.

I've seen Texas list their records in many different ways, not once have I seen them count the 1896 Missouri games in their record.  Check their media guide:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tex/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/records-yr-results.pdf

The games aren't even listed, the record is 4-2-1.  In the coaches records on page 204, listed at 4-2-1.

Neither does Missouri count these games in their records.


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/miss/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/FBRecordBook-2011.pdf

Page 34, the record listed at 7-5, page 36, the coaches record listed at 7-5, page 38, the games aren't even listed.

Neither have any of these games every appeared in their all-time record.


The New Mexico games you are talking about, I can find no reference to.

As for the Kentucky game, I see they do place an exhibition game in their record (I also see I knew that and forgot).  However, you seem to have applied it to the wrong game, and Eastern Kentucky didn't really field a team in 1893.

So, it's possible I forgot some others, but as it stands right now, I only see one exhibition game in history has ever been counted in a team's record.  Other teams that have exhibition games:

Nebraska - do they count it in their record?  No

Mcihigan - do they count it in their record?  No

New Mexico State - do they count it in their record?  No

Maine - do they count it in their record?  No

Utah State - do they count it in their record?  No

I've just rechecked their media guides and they don't count these games in their records.  You need to give me specifics.


Alright, as for accurate information.  You are very correct in that there is going to be no perfect site for information.   There's no way anybody moved that much information and gets it correct.  On top of it, this information is sketchy at times and is still changing.  However, why not get right as much as you can get right?

I'm not sure where you're going with the vacated games thing, but vacated games do not apply to the opponent.  It's misleading to show otherwise.



I've listed some things that would help me know where you're going with your data.  It would also be good for you to think about these before you've got your tables set in stone.  It's easier to design this stuff up front, instead of wedging it in later.  Just my suggestion.


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